Talk:Treaty of Saint-Clair-sur-Epte

Hola

Pienso que este es tonto 74.95.12.193 (talk) 22:01, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

More sources, more context.

Hello, we are considering adding more content. This will be added in all sections, and additional work added into the sub-sections. we will add more about the context around the parties within the treaty:

Vikings have been raiding and plundering French lands since the ages of Charlemagne. King after king among the Carolingian dynasty have tried but ultimately failed to stop these Viking incursions throughout the dynasties reign. Upon Louis the Pious death, his son Charles II the Bald takes over. Charles II had immediately been thrust into a war against his brother Lothar. Lothar, who was the emperor at the time, ordered his Danish vassal to raid and plunder specific sites in Charles’ kingdom.¹⁷ Eventually, the Vikings became accustomed to easily obtained riches and could not be controlled resulting in them plundering whatever they wanted to, at any time they want. It got to a point where the Vikings had more of a say than the Danish King himself on where and when to raid. They hit modern day Normandy and Brittany in devastating fashion. The most important raid that occurred during his reign was when the famous Viking Ragnar attacked Paris. Charles tried to stop this plundering by force but, like his family before him, was not successful. He then opted for an approach to pay the Vikings off, but this only made the Vikings thirstier for plunder.

After Charles II the Bald passed away in 877, there were 6 more rulers that had to deal with the Vikings up to the Treaty of Saint Claire sur Epte, with the last being Charles the Simple. The five rulers before him; Louis the Stammerer, Louis III, Carloman II, Odo of Paris, and Charles the Fat, had not done anything more significant than their predecessors to thwart these Vikings. It is worth noting that Charles the Fat came the closest to a solution as he had given land to a Viking named Gudrod, to guard the Rhine River from further Viking attacks¹⁸, which is essentially what the Treaty of Saint Clair Sur-Epte is meant to do from the river Epte to the sea. This gift of land only proved to be more costly for the Franks as Gudrod had decided not long after receiving the land to continue raiding West Frankia. Throughout the times of these five kings, the counts and dukes under the kingdom in West Frankia started to fortify their own lands heavily to counter these Viking attacks. Eventually, the Vikings raids would become much harder to accomplish as these smaller feudal lords protected their land well. Nonetheless, it has still been hundreds of years of Viking invasion and permanent settlements were bound to happen. In one case, a Viking leader named Rollo, who brought thousands of Vikings to raid, plunder, and settle had enacted a permanent settlement along the Seine River in the year 900.²⁰ Just two years before this in 898, a new king is crowned by the name of Charles the Simple. Although a bit worrisome, the permanent Viking settlement was relatively peaceful and did not pose a real threat to Charles. It was until 911 when raiding resumed from Rollo that caused the real concern of the Viking threat again, but this time things were different. Charles and Rollo would face each other in battle near Chartres resulting in a close Viking defeat.²¹ Though weakened, the Vikings were still a formidable force, which resulted in a very unusual proposal by King Charles. Charles proposed that Rollo be baptized and granted land from the Seine River to the sea, along with protecting the kingdom from further Viking raids. This treaty would go on to be known as the famous Treaty of Saint Clair Sur-Epte.

And for Rollo:

As a young man, Rollo grew up in the Scandinavian region where him and his brother Gurim would become fighters. The story goes that Rollo and Gurim were having disagreements with the king of Dacia and gathers up a group of men to confront the King of Dacia. Rollo makes a call to these men by saying that they must grow into becoming great men and that they need to imitate their fathers and grandfathers. He also says that the King is trying to step over them and attack the monarchy that they need to be ready and fight them and keep them at away from the land that the King rules over like enemies.[1] From that point on Rollo, Gurim, and the men under them went to war with the King of Dacia. The war between the King and his men and Rollo, Gurim, and their men last over a year in which the King sends a message of Peace to Rollo in which he says that we should not be at war with each other and that we should be able to hold each other with high regard and respect.[2] The King says that we should allow the republic to be at rest so that he can hold what he believes is his and what his father fought for to keep. Rollo and his men like the sound of this idea so they agree to meet with the King for some sort of peace conference where they would exchange gifts and create an alliance.[3] The King of Dacia breaks that agreement, and he sets up and attack on Rollo and his men to happen at night when they arrive. The ambush lead Rollo and his men to fall back into the local town near the King where they regroup and fight back.[4] Rollo lost many men including his brother during the attack that after the attack from the King, he gathers what men he can went to the island of Scania with six boats.[5]

We will add more content about the cultural shifts that the vikings involved themselves in:

Starting from primitive tribes that formed small bands for hunting and food gathering. The Vikings evolved over time into a large group of roving bandits that sailed the coast of Europe and at the expense of the society in which they faced, gained substantial rewards from the act of plundering. ²⁰ While sailing through Frankish territory, it reached many notable cities during the height of their large-scale pillaging including Paris in 845 and 885¹⁹. The outcome of Viking invasion ended in the often case of bribery on behalf of the Franks with valuables such as silver. The Vikings also sailed to Rouen, and eventually Chartes which was led by the first Duke of Normandy, Rollo. Over time, demand for the loot gained from the plunders increased among the Viking tribes and this caused many to settle to ward off other Vikings as well as increase profits. On top of this, there was concern for overpopulation, political persecution, and conquest incentives that drove up the number of Viking migrants out of their native land. ²⁰  

information on the treaty:

The Viking warlord Rollo laid siege on Chartres before Charles the Simple offered to make a peace deal. The proceedings were rocky; Rollo was originally offered Flanders, a stoney section of West-Frankia along the northern coast[1]. Rollo denied this offer advocating for arable land. Charles’ changed quickly and Rollo became the first Duke of the land east of the Epte river while still being along the northern coast, which was far more farmable than Flanders. This land later became known as Normandy.

Charles the Simple did not draw the short stick in this treaty. Rather, he benefited from having an alliance with Rollo, a successful warlord. King Charles gave this land to Rollo under the assumption that Rollo would become baptized and fend off other Vikings who had been continually battering the northern coastline of West Frankia[2]; allowing Charles to focus on the conflicts that he was facing with nobles[3]. While Charles was able to keep peace with the nobles for a while, he was only able to set back his deposition –not avoid it entirely –which occurred in 923.

and information about how cultures have changed. We will put that information in the part about the formation of Normandy:

The title of Duchy of Normandy was a role without precedent. The Scandinavian Rollo was an outsider among the Franks and his actions needed to be strategic to maintain the political power of this new position. The Treaty of Saint-Clair-Sur-Epte may have been another Carolingian tactic to ease Viking attacks and as author Letty ten Clair argues, possibly meant to be temporary. However, by choosing to assimilate and reinvent their cultural identity the Vikings and Rollo’s descendants created a greater succession than when events like this treaty had occurred before.[1] Vikings were defined by their “heathenism” and their Paganism to distinguish them between the Natives and the invading Vikings. The Treaty of Saint-Clair-Sur-Epte granted the duchy to Rollo if he was baptized as a Christian abandoning his previous religion. Rollo understood that Franks would have animosity towards him, especially for his religion. Ademar of Chabannes wrote of Rollo as simultaneously beheading his captives in the name of his Pagan gods and donating to the established Christian churches in the name of the God in which he was baptized.[2]One of the most memorable accounts of the meeting of Rollo and Charles the Simple in 911 was Rollo being asked to bend down to kiss Charles’s foot.[3] Rollo instead had one of his men do the task who knocked down Charles during the gesture. Author Alice Taylor argues, when Dudo wrote his account of the event, he instead exaggerated respectful gestures he described Rollo enacting towards Charles the Simple to create an image of submission. Although this account was likely exaggerated Rollo’s descendants did understand the importance of cultural assimilation by phasing out Pagan practices in favor of Christian ones, such as Rollo’s grandson William restoring Frankish monasteries. The Franks may have held animosity towards the Scandinavians, but ultimately the Treaty was long lasting as descendants continued to assimilate and the idea of submission to Carolingian ideals was already in place. The cultural integration and assimilation by the Scandinavians allowed Normandy to create its own cultural identity that ultimately marks the Treaty of Saint-Clair-Sur-Epte as the influential moment that started the evolution of Normandy’s power. With a strong national identity Normandy went on to conquer other nations within generations of Rollo’s first Ducal ruling.

and lastly, we will add a historiography:

Any good historian who discusses the Treaty of Saint Clair sur Epte uses the Gesta Normannorum written by Dudo of Saint Quentin. Dudo, dating from around 1,000 CE, had written one of the most relevant primary sources to the treaty that has survived throughout history. His work was compiled of flowery poetry and stories glorifying the greatness of the Normans. Dudo’s accounts are rarely trusted as law but are imperative to understanding the cultural significance of this treaty between Rollo and Charles the Simple[1]. Hired to write a narrative history for the Norman Dukedom, Dudo’s history helps modern historians understand the role of social relations and culture, giving key insights that modern historians have gone on to debate throughout history. These issues include, but cannot be limited to, the role of religion, military power, political power, and cultural values within Normandy, as well as West Frankia, and Europe as a whole.

Modern historians such as Kim Hjardar and Vegard Vike present an argument regarding military power, in which they state that the Carolingians slightly overlooked the Vikings and did not do enough to initially thwart the Viking attacks that were soon to come, leading to varying forms of payment including the land acquisition of Normandy in the Treaty of Saint Clair-Sur-Epte. After this raid in 799, the author’s tone suggests that Charlemagne knew about the threat of the Vikings but essentially just didn’t do enough to stop them, leaving the Vikings to feel increasingly brave in their plans of attack. They suggest he had been warned and yet still provided lackluster defenses. The authors point to a specific plan of defense which consisted of building large coastal forts at the edge of every major river.¹² They recognize the plan itself as a good one, but the lack of defense plans outside of just the large forts is what was threatening.¹³ The authors also mention speculations that he was not taking the threat of the Vikings seriously and that a solution to the problem had surely not been solved.¹⁴ A counter argument can be formed from Horst Losslein’s book, Royal Power in the Late Carolingian Age, as this book states how there really was no way of thwarting the Viking attacks initially. Instead, through a much longer period of dealing with the Vikings, the Franks gained a deeper understanding of what the Vikings wanted and how to deal with them. This usually being in the form of some sort of agreement regarding payment or land acquisition, which leads us directly to the reasoning of the Treaty of Saint Clair-Sur-Epte.[2] From a military perspective, instead of questioning why the franks didn't do more, they should understand that there is only so much that can be done without depleting your men or resources to the point you cannot defend against other immediate threats to the realm.

Historians have debated whether the government in Normandy post treaty was aristocratic or an absolute monarchy. Historian Gilduin Davy brings up that Rollo had brought a type of peace to the country after his baptism and that he only passed laws that were given to him from the lords.[3] Other historians like David Hoüard believed Rollo’s government was an absolute monarchy because his successors held control over churches, law making, their citizens lives, creation of currency, and the justice system and making sure sentences get carried out.[4] Friedaj (talk) 19:39, 4 December 2024 (UTC)